bavardage

watermeloncholy:

Hey, just lurking around on here (awesome tumblr, tbh) and noticed that you were a fellow fan of the Greatest House in All Westeros, House Martell (Oberyn Martell, my sweet Viper Prince…). Thought I’d throw in my two cents on all the Martell fancasting, because you seem better-informed than me on a lot of this, and I’d value your opinion. But here goes: I’m finding that this whole discussion is just reminding me why the whole concept of race is such a fail from a biological perspective. For instance, the whole question of whether or not the Martells were “white” or not… confuses me. They’re described as having olive complexions and dark hair. Okay, then. So that means they could look like they were Middle Eastern (who sometimes identify as Caucasian, sometimes don’t, depending on the individual), Southern European, Indian, Native American, Roma (I actually always got an Orphans of the Greenblood=Roma vibe), or certain types of Hispanic. That narrows it down, then. Heck, the physical descriptions of “salty” Dornishmen match a Lebanese friend of mine and also my father, who is in fact Polish.

Also, in the context of the series, you’ve mentioned characters being “canonically white” as opposed to “canonically fair-skinned” (Edmure Tully vs. Tyene Sand). I may just be ignorant here, but what exactly is the difference? Especially in a fantasy world where we don’t know the racial attitudes, really? I’m really curious- I didn’t get the Ralinda outrage over Oona (she’s gorgeous and looks just how I imagined Jeyne, maybe aged-up to match Robb- why didn’t people like her?), and I don’t quite understand this. Again, maybe it’s my own ignorance- I just assumed I was biracial until I was nine, because my father has much darker coloring than my mother, though they are both ethnically Caucasian, so I’m hardly an expert on the finer points of racial identity. Thoughts?

(also, if it makes any difference, my ideal Oberyn is Oded Fehr, and maybe find an unknown actress for Arianne, because I can’t think of anyone who really fits my mental image, so why not give someone new and talented a chance? Although I think all the whitewashed fancasting is more a RESULT of how white the idustry is, not an endorsement. Just a plain “I want my fav actor as my fav character; my fav actor is white cuz there just isn’t enough diversity in Hollywood, so odds are he would be, but I’m not thinking of that- I just wanna see the dude I like wearing the arms of my favorite ASOIAF House, however implausible it is.”)

Again, sorry if I’m being ignorant.

Thank you! Yes, I’m a big fan of House Martell. The concept of race and how it’s defined is a complete and total failure, but it’s unfortunately not going anywhere anytime soon. I don’t think there’s any redefining race, especially since so many people want to ignore the fact that it exists in the first place and causes a lot of strife. 

As you said, Dorne is described as an ethnically mixed region in Westeros. GRRM spoke about his influences for Dorne and he mentioned how he took influences from a few different cultures and places that aren’t necessarily geographically close. The Martells are described as people of colour, but due to racial hegemony, this doesn’t register in a lot of reader’s minds.  For people of colour and for people make the effort to be aware of white privilege and the lack of representation for POC in literature and media, it’s sort of obvious that the Martells should be people of colour.

To others, white and fair-skinned are one and the same. To me, these terms mean different things; I don’t believe that they’re interchangeable because (due to where I grew up and how I was raised) I always heard these descriptions applied to all sorts of people. You can be Asian and fair-skinned or dark-skinned, black and fair or dark,  ethnically mixed and fair or dark, white and fair or dark. Fair isn’t a description owned by a particular race.

When I say canonically white, I mean that certain characters are coded (by culture and outward appearance and family lineage) as white according to GRRM’s source material (the War of the Roses) and how he describes them. GRRM bases Westeros on a particular time in history so certain characters are sort of culturally specific (not to mention, he tends to otherise when he’s describing characters who are racially different or racially white, but ethnically different). White is also pretty much considered default, so when GRRM created these characters, he imagined them as white. You’re right that race and ethnicity in Westeros do not have to prescribe to reality since this is a fantasy series. GRRM could have based his story on the War of the Roses and imagined all the characters as racially mixed because fiction, especially fantasy fiction, doesn’t have the same constraints as real life.

When I say canonically fair-skinned, I mean that that character I’m talking about is a person of colour, but their skin colouring is light and their physical appearance might not necessarily indicate that they are a person of colour. Tyene Sand for example isn’t white, she’s (both racially and ethnically) mixed and fair-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed. I really hope that when it’s time to cast Tyene, they can find an actress who fits her description without resorting to casting someone white. There’s a significant mixed population in London, so I’m sure there are actors out there who could fit the part.  

I get where Ralinda’s outrage comes from; it comes from a place of privilege and ignorance.

I imagine Oberyn as Oded Fehr, but hopefully, if the production goes with an unknown,  Nina Gold will come through and cast someone who physically and characteristically fits the role. There have been a few great Arianne fancasts so I’m sure that a professional like Nina Gold has a few people in mind. I think the whitewashed fancasting is a symptom of how the industry is, but it’s also a reinforcement of whiteness. I think that sort of fancasting tends to come from ignorance and obliviousness of the text. People who don’t have to think about race or don’t want to acknowledge race tend to be really blind to diversity. They don’t strive for diversity because they don’t see overwhelming whiteness as a problem. I don’t think it’s necessarily people thinking that they just want their favorite actors as their favourite characters. A number of my favourite actors are white, but I’d never cast them in roles for people of colour just because I was too lazy to do my research or because I couldn’t find anyone else.

this this this this this this this. Nuanced visions of race in Westeros FTW.